A New Nation Within The Us Midwest

[Scannerman]

The Lakota Nation of Indians has declared independance from the United States and are now on their own. They will allow their citizens to live there TAX FREE if the denounce their US citizenship.
Their territory includes parts of 5 states.
Here is a link for more info.
http://www.lakotafreedom.com/media.html

More info.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/usindigenoustreatywithdraw

[IronHorseman]

I wonder how long it will take King George to invade?

[Cassie]

I wonder how long it will take them to holler, when after denouncing/giving up their U.S. citizenship, their monthly government checks stop.

My great grandmother was a Lakota Souix.

The U.S. did do them a disservice when they said, "Live here only and we will take care of you." They helped them learn, accept, and perpetuate a welfare mentality. They had nothing to do. No drive to better themselves or lift themselves out of poverty. Kind of like many in New Orleans. :eek: :cool: Did I say that? :D

[GCNATIVEGIRL]

The bigger disservice might possibly have been the US's total disregarde for their autonomy, moving them to where they would be the least bother to them, and acting like they had the right to do it in the first place. Hmmm...United States, anglo-saxon Americans invade a country, then tell people where they can live and what they can and acting like their way is better, and thier religion is better. Something seems familiar.....Wow, things sure have canged in a 200 years.

[IronHorseman]

The bigger disservice might possibly have been the US's total disregarde for their autonomy, moving them to where they would be the least bother to them, and acting like they had the right to do it in the first place. Hmmm...United States, anglo-saxon Americans invade a country, then tell people where they can live and what they can and acting like their way is better, and thier religion is better. Something seems familiar.....Wow, things sure have canged in a 200 years.

Christianity has a saviour makinhg it vastly superior to the polytheistic religion of the native Americans. Our saviour commissioned us to spead his teachings " Then Jesus said " All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of ALL NATIONS, baptizing them in the name of the FAther and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always to thevery end of the age." Matthew28:18-20.
I`m sure that ALL Nations meant native Americans to. The problem was the method. From the day of Pentecost until the pseudo-conversion of Constantine in AD 312 Christianity spread even though it was an illegal undergound religion punishable by death under Roman rule. Before Constantines pseudo-conversion the church grew through the preaching and teaching of the word. After Constantines pseudo-conversion Christianity became the officil religion of Rome and pseudo-christianity was spread by the Roman sword.True evangelism cannot take place by force.
The protestant reformation rightly sought to remove the church from Roman rule but failed miserable resulting in many sects under many earthly heads.
One such earthly head was the English crown which assterted itself as the head of the church of England. In American colonial times preaching without a license from the English crown was captitol offense.
Thankfully God has preserved a remanant of his church throughout the ages.
The slaughter and hearding of native Americans onto reservations was inexcusable. However evangelizing them is a command from Christ.

[GCNATIVEGIRL]

And all that had what to do with my post? I know my history too, and the US was founded on the idea of religous freedom, unfortunately that usually means religous freedom we like. The Bible, which I too use for worship, isnt actually a governmental document, its a religous document. Show me where it says we have to force Native Americans kids to go to "English" as they called them schools, have their names changed to "English" ones and have Christianity forced on them....and yes it was forced, as there were many documented cases of child abuse by clergy incharge of the mission schools during that time, then we'll talk. Prob is it doesnt, we invaded Iraq for a lot of reasons and none had anything to do with the reasons the American public was told. Muslims are not all evil, the same paranoid view of all Muslims being evil isnt that far from the "Yellow Peril", the fear of all Japanese, and the "Evil Savages" we have had in the past. Our own narrow mindedness revisted on a different race once again. And yes I am a Christian who attends church regularly and attempts to raise my children within our faith, but that doesnt make me blind, deaf, and stupid to what our government, usually controlled by old white men, does out of racism and fear.

[IronHorseman]

" It is impossible to rightly govern the world without God and the Bible." George Washington

Let me paraphrase that for you the bible is Gods plan for how men should govern themselves. As far as Islam and other religions are concerned any religion that denies the diety of Christ is evil. Many muslims are ignorant of their own religion. Many more may simply be lying to advance islam since the koran allows that.

[06-165]

I'm probably the biggest supporter of freedom of religion that you're going to find. If you want to follow Jesus Christ, Allah, Anubis, or any other god that your religion deems desireable, then by all means go ahead. It just always seemed kind of rude to me to essentially say, "Hey Natives, those gods you've been worshipping for the hundreds of years that you've been here are the wrong ones. Here, read my book and it'll explain all the reasons why you're wrong. Oh and if you don't, then you're evil and going to my hell. It doesn't matter of you don't believe in it or not, because it's the only truth regardless of what you say." And in my opinion, what good does it do to force someone to change their name and pray to a different deity, if you know that in their heart they still don't believe in it.

By far my longest rant yet...don't know what got into me

[IronHorseman]

And in my opinion, what good does it do to force someone to change their name and pray to a different deity, if you know that in their heart they still don't believe in it.



That`s exactly my point. You can not force someone to become a Christian although some have tried. If they do not believe that Jesus is the Son of the one true living God they are not Christians. The may call themselves christians but they clearly are not.

[Scannerman]

Muslims are not all evil, the same paranoid view of all Muslims being evil isnt that far from the "Yellow Peril", the fear of all Japanese, and the "Evil Savages" we have had in the past. Our own narrow mindedness revisted on a different race once again. And yes I am a Christian who attends church regularly and attempts to raise my children within our faith, but that doesnt make me blind, deaf, and stupid to what our government, usually controlled by old white men, does out of racism and fear.
MusAmerican Heritage Dictionary - Cite This Source - Share This Mus·lim (mŭz'ləm, mŏŏz'-, mŭs'-, mŏŏs'-) Pronunciation Key
n.
also Mos·lem (mŏz'ləm, mŏs'-) A believer in or adherent of Islam.
A member of the Nation of Islam; a Black Muslim.


[Arabic muslim, one who surrenders, active participle of 'aslama, to surrender; see Islam.]

Mus'lim adj.

Muslim is not a race. It is simply a follower of Islam. So "racism" is a moot point in this argument. It has nothing to do with racism.

[IronHorseman]

Getting back to the matter at hand. How long before congress declares the actions of the Lakota an act of war by cession?

[IronHorseman]

Lakota withdraw from treaties, declare independence from U.S. - On Deadline - USATODAY.com
Address:http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/12/lakota-withdraw.html

[Scannerman]

If the Lakota Nation is already so poor, has a high suicide rate, high HIV rate and other social problems how will they survive? If they don't already have their own water source, treatment plant, road crews, police and fire protection, etc. who is going to provide such services? How will they pay for it, especially if citizens live tax free? Are they going to call on the US government for aid right away? If they were on a border state I understand they could enlist the help of other nations but since they are in the middle of the US how will that play out? If they can do it on their own...more power to them.

[IronHorseman]

My guess is they will seize property,assets and industries within the 5 state area.
It might not be a good time to be a white land/business owner out there.

[photoguy9883]

My guess is they will seize property,assets and industries within the 5 state area.
It might not be a good time to be a white land/business owner out there.
And just how are they going to seize the property?

[IronHorseman]

And just how are they going to seize the property?

By force,I`m sure they have acces to weapons. I see a civil war in the making.

[Kurt M. Weber]

Many reservations (including the Standing Rock Lakota Reservation, the primary Lakota reservation) have tribal police that are directly under the authority of the tribal government.

Of course, whether that's enough to overcome the armed citizens and whatever other force the current governments in the areas they intend to take over outside the various reservations (see http://ishgooda.org/oglala/1868lnd.htm for a map of the areas originally ceded to the Lakota...this will probably give you a good idea of the territory this movement seeks to declare as its own) is a different matter entirely.

Furthermore, I'm not sure just how much support this movement is receiving within the Lakota Nation anyway.

[photoguy9883]

Furthermore, I'm not sure just how much support this movement is receiving within the Lakota Nation anyway.

Not much. The gentleman leading this movement has pretty much been on the fringes for awhile now.

[photoguy9883]

By force,I`m sure they have acces to weapons. I see a civil war in the making.

And I see a paranoid man sitting at a computer.

[Kurt M. Weber]

Not much. The gentleman leading this movement has pretty much been on the fringes for awhile now.

Yeah, that's the impression that I've been getting as I read more and more of this.

It's quite telling that this hasn't (to my knowledge, anyway) received significant coverage in any major media outlet. An offhand mention, perhaps, but no major reports.

So yeah, unless they can get the tribal police to go along with it (not likely given the lack of support), they're not going to have much luck overcoming any resistance citizens or the government may care to put up.

[GCNATIVEGIRL]

Muslim is not a race. It is simply a follower of Islam. So "racism" is a moot point in this argument. It has nothing to do with racism.

Most Muslims aren't caucasion, and this country has sort of a bad reputation when dealing with anyone who doesnt look like Barbie and Ken, or relatives there of. So when we have a habit of going to war with people who dont like like the majority of Americans, are of darker skin tone, and most Muslims I think I can safely say fit that description, then yes its also a matter of race, or really just a case of us as usual not liking those who dont dress, look and worship they way the majority of white America does.

And the paranoia is kinda scary on here lol.

[IronHorseman]

And I see a paranoid man sitting at a computer.

Nope just watching the political barometer of the United States.
My history teacher told us the average government lives 200-250 before it folds.I always hoped he would be wrong about the United Stares or thet it would not take place in my lifetime. But looking around at how deep the divisions are in this country I think something is going to blow if the Bible and the constitution are not restored to their rightful place inn society.

[krazy68]

I agree with you but the revolution will come because people are trying to move the Bible from its rightful place that it has held for over 200 years.

[Scannerman]

You guys are right. If you look at our country right now it is on the peak of the mountain. The saying; "United we stand; Divided we fall", is truly relevant now in our place in history. We are in for a great fall if things don't change. The Bible also tells us that there will not be another ruling empire such as there was from the Roman empire and before. There will be a mix ruling from various nations. Some think it could be the UN or some form of "countries" such as the EU and maybe the "NAU" (which is debateable whether it is going to happen or not). I believe between now and 2012 there will be significant changes in the world. Although Christians in many countries are already killed on a daily basis for their beliefs, I believe it will expand. Millions of Christians have been killed for being Christians for many years in Darfur, however, no one paid attention to Darfur until the starvation and slavery were brought to the forefront to try to drag this administration down. Some people tried to use the "violation of civil rights" in Darfur to criticize the administration when it said thousands of Iraqis were being killed by Hussein. The fact that was left out by the "leftist" groups who used this tactic was that most of the killing was done because these people were Christians.

[IronHorseman]

I agree with you but the revolution will come because people are trying to move the Bible from its rightful place that it has held for over 200 years.

The bible hasbben forced out of American public life.
Greys Primer, a book of bible verses was widely used to teach public school children to read as late as the 1950`s.

[krazy68]

IH I am interested in this book "Greys Primer", but can not find any info on it. Could you please tell me more about it such as the years it was used, how prevalent was its use, in what geographic areas was it used?

[IronHorseman]

IH I am interested in this book "Greys Primer", but can not find any info on it. Could you please tell me more about it such as the years it was used, how prevalent was its use, in what geographic areas was it used?

I first learned of Grey`s Primer when I took a course on the separation of church and state in `01 or `02. The materials presented were from David Bartons Wall Builders www.wallbuilders.com lot`s of home schoolers use their curriculum. The material is also presented in the Institute On The Constitution. CFC church in Envansville was the most recent host of IOTC in the tri-state. I have a friend that`s an IOTC instructor I can put yopu in contact with.
Grey`s primer and the New England primer both come up in these discussions. The New England primer dates to colonial times, Grey`s is more modern.

The New England Primer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Address:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England_Primer Changed:11:10 AM on Saturday, November 17, 2007

[GCNATIVEGIRL]

I dont think the fact that it has been moved out of public life that should be worrying us, its that its been moved out of private life. I recently took 2 kids to my daughters church club, last week actually one is 5 and the other 7, brother and sister and they didnt know what the nativity that was on display under the HUMC trees. My daughter who is 5 explained they were the figurines of the baby Jesus and his friends. I just found that kind of surprising that they didnt know what it was.

[krazy68]

Ones used during colonial times wouldn't have much bearing on our discussion, since that was before the Nation was formed. That makes Greys the one I am interested in.

[IronHorseman]

I dont think the fact that it has been moved out of public life that should be worrying us, its that its been moved out of private life. I recently took 2 kids to my daughters church club, last week actually one is 5 and the other 7, brother and sister and they didnt know what the nativity that was on display under the HUMC trees. My daughter who is 5 explained they were the figurines of the baby Jesus and his friends. I just found that kind of surprising that they didnt know what it was.
I`m going to have to agree with you on that one. Biblical ignorance is crippling the church.And the belief in the mythical separation of chirch and state is destroying the church`s influence in society.

[IronHorseman]

Ones used during colonial times wouldn't have much bearing on our discussion, since that was before the Nation was formed. That makes Greys the one I am interested in.

Chew on this while I try to contact Ron Reed that taught the course I attended.

School Prayer in America, Separation of Church and State
Address:http://www.schoolprayerinamerica.info/ Changed:9:15 PM on Monday, September 17, 2007

[krazy68]

I read it but it doesn't mean anything. A Christian writer believes that the Christian religion should be in the classroom. By proclaiming that, he has completely disregarded every other religion. How would you accommodate these other religions and still have time to teach anything? Do they not have a right to the same.

Religion should be kept in the homes, churches, and everyday lives, but the state should not be taking time away from students to promote a certain religion.

We have a basic difference of opinion in what the state should be involved in. Thats is ok as long as you don't cast aspersions on my character for my beliefs, I will refrain from doing the same.

[IronHorseman]

I read it but it doesn't mean anything. A Christian writer believes that the Christian religion should be in the classroom. By proclaiming that, he has completely disregarded every other religion. How would you accommodate these other religions and still have time to teach anything? Do they not have a right to the same.

Religion should be kept in the homes, churches, and everyday lives, but the state should not be taking time away from students to promote a certain religion.

We have a basic difference of opinion in what the state should be involved in. Thats is ok as long as you don't cast aspersions on my character for my beliefs, I will refrain from doing the same.

I don`t have any problem with your character.I do hope that we can agree on the historical facts thought that bible verses were traditionally used in reading primers in America bothy before and after the revolution.

[krazy68]

I will agree that that is true, but it seems as the schools left the control of the church and became true public schools this tradition soon ended because it was found to be unconstitutional to do so. You would lead us to believe that this was going on in public schools for over 200 years, and that is not true.

[photoguy9883]

I don`t have any problem with your character.I do hope that we can agree on the historical facts thought that bible verses were traditionally used in reading primers in America bothy before and after the revolution.

And portions of the Bible are still read in public schools today. I know I read the entire book of Job in my senior English class and portions of Ecclesiastes and I believe Lamentations my freshman (sophmore year was all short stories with some insipid John Steinbeck and junior year was all American literature and we didn't read the Book of Mormon).

[IronHorseman]

And portions of the Bible are still read in public schools today. I know I read the entire book of Job in my senior English class and portions of Ecclesiastes and I believe Lamentations my freshman (sophmore year was all short stories with some insipid John Steinbeck and junior year was all American literature and we didn't read the Book of Mormon).

You read the bible but don`t know what you read?

[photoguy9883]

You read the bible but don`t know what you read?

It's been awhile since my freshman year and year in high school. And if you must know I have read the entire Old Testament a couple of times (most recently during my last semester of college in a Jewish Scriptures class, taught at, gasp!, a state college).
But me not knowing what I read really isn't the point here. Its the fact that you and others of your ilk constantly say that God has been removed from the public schools: that the courts have stopped students from being able to pray or read the Bible, when that just isn't true. Students can and do pray, students can and do read the Bible; to prevent them from doing so would be a clear violation of the First Amendement to the Constitution and a clear violation of the Supreme Court's interpritations of the Establishment Clause. The only thing that can't happen in schools is that teachers and administrators (read: agents of the goverment) cannot prostelitize. Now that does have different meanings depending upon the ages of the children involved, but that's really another discussion.
So I guess what I'm trying to say is stay on topic and don't try to bait me or other people in to other discussions when the fallicies in your arguements are pointed out.